JCR: What’s the opinion on the landscape for black talents in fashion?

CA: I think we’re embraced on certain levels. And I think it’s generally easier for European blacks than Americans to enter the industry. But for both, I think we’re relegated to the working in the background.

JCR: What does “in the background” mean?

CA: I mean that in a couple ways. One is that I think black culture is often sought for that spunk to jazz up collections or an image but we don’t actually appear as the image for these brands. We’re not the models but we do exist in roles of assisting Karl Lagerfeld, doing the hair for Versace, design assistant, the scouts, the person running around compiling all the ideas, those roles do exist for us, but at the front of the house, that’s another story.

JCR: And why do you think Europeans are more widely and easily accepted in fashion’s inner circle?

CA: I think there’s the perception that Europeans carry a lighter air if just in their speech. And we’re mainly talking about the English here. I’d also say for the Americans who do break through, their speech, for example is likened to a more of a white way of speaking. A Bryant Gumbel type with a flair for fashion, let’s say. Not to complicate the issue, but it’s similar to if you’re trying to make inroads in the hip-hop community and you don’t speak in a certain vernacular then you’re not considered black. To gain a certain comfort level amongst the greater fashion audience, it helps to communicate like they do, because in a way, you’re then not really considered black.

EB: There was a time about eight years ago when I first started working in Europe, it was cool to have this overseas transfer. It was very attractive for the fashion community in New York to hire Europeans black or white, and equally exciting for Americans to work in Europe. When I first started working at Bottega Veneta, it was very exciting to have me there. It didn’t matter that I was an African-American who just graduated from college. I had a flair that they wanted in Europe at that time. But that got old. And I can say that in my experiences recently it became more and more difficult for black people to come to the forefront of the fashion community. I agree with Chuckie that it’s acceptable for us to be assistant designers and assistant stylists, the kind of people who may be seen but unheard. And it has largely stayed like that.

JCR: But what about the high profilers that we’re seeing in fashion, P. Diddy, Kimora Lee, Oprah – nevermind the swagger and talk that’s appropriated from black culture that’s so trendy right now?

EB: Nine out of ten cases, this level of success is from entrepreneurs who’ve started their own thing. P. Diddy and Oprah are creators of their own world. They’ve started their ventures and worked extremely hard to push them forward. As a black person, ascending to the heights of becoming a head designer for Versace, for example, and taking the after-show bow, is something else.

JCR: So you have to take ownership of your destiny in order to achieve the level of success that a P. Diddy has?

EB: Absolutely.

JCR: Does the notion exist that black taste and high fashion don’t mesh?

EB: Historically, I think blacks and other races are considered exotic. Being considered exotic means that when there’s a trend of braids or African prints, it’s considered ethnic and exotic. We’re never considered Americans. We’re never considered the Clare McCardells. Willi Smith, for example, is not considered a great American designer, he was considered a black designer doing things.

JCR: Does this have anything to do with fashion’s Euro-centric history? Do blacks really figure into that history?

EB: What was Halston doing that Stephen Burrows wasn’t doing? There’s a fine line there. I think Stephen Burrows’ level of design was on par with Halston but he never ascended to the heights that Halston did and this man is still living. You don’t see anyone pouring over him giving him money to work out his business.

CA: I think you have a point, Jason. To be in high fashion is to be in Europe surrounded by the legacy of the couture world that was originally set up by the aristocratic community. And let’s take it to the early part of last century, when Coco Chanel made her mark, that history doesn’t include going to the Cotton Club for inspiration. We never really became a part of that society, a part of that roundtable. But now things are different, I do think black culture is heavily sought for ideas and there should be a new multicultural roundtable.

JCR: This brings me to the next subject of black and beauty. Is that an oxymoron in fashion?

EB: Once again we’re considered exotic and I bring up Liya Kedebe to illustrate this point. She is one of the highest paid working models. She’s one of the faces of a massive cosmetic company. She’s an African-American model yet she has Anglo features, very beautiful. But my point is she’s more palatable, easier to understand visually – I’m addressing the feeling of the decision-makers surrounding her contract. She’s being marketed as an American standard or even universal standard of beauty, but could an Alex Wek or another model with typically African features do the same thing?

JCR: Let’s talk about Andre Leon Talley. Many bring him up as the example of black inclusion at the highest level.

CA: We don’t need just one, we need ten, twenty, thirty five.

EB: But Andre created his space.

CA: And he has helped other black talent along the way.

JCR: Tell us about your individual experiences in the infiltrating fashion’s mainframe.

CA: There’s a certain level of playing the jester to make inroads in the industry. There’s a dancing, joking, laughing performance I feel blacks have to participate in to make their entry.

TC: I think if you’re true to yourself, people will recognize that and want a part of that and will try to help you along the way, which’s been my experience.

JCR: So your ascent wouldn’t have been different had you been a cute blond woman?

EB: Tracy, now force it out, we’ve all been scratching and kicking. When I graduated from Parsons, for a year and a half these American designers did not want to hear one word from me. I graduated with the same degrees and awards as Marc Jacobs. I went to Calvin, to Donna, Ralph, Perry Ellis, I went everywhere but no one wanted to hear from me. And it wasn’t because my portfolio wasn’t tight – and I was very professional. Then I landed at Bottega Veneta, because as I said, the climate was to have Americans in European companies at that time.

JCR: What about all the attention the urban clothing market is getting: Rocawear, Akedemiks, Fubu, etc?

CA: There’s a market for it, period.

EB: When you talk about fashion and trends, you have to look at what’s going on in popular culture and we’re in a time when hip-hop and R&B music consistently enter at the top of the charts. There’s no crossover, urban music is mainstream. These kids in the Midwest, in Italy, in the suburbs of Germany, all they’re listening to is hip-hop and R&B music. They know the music and the dress and that has a lot to do with the success of these urban brands that largely has a black identity.

JCR: On the race issue, the subject of model representation on the runway is the oft-discussed one. How much of a role do you think that plays for the consumer?

CA: I think it’s a pull rather than a push. I don’t think designers are thinking that they should put black girls on the runway to see if they can capture a black audience. It works the other way around where if they see sales increase among a black demographic then they may be more apt to representing them on the runways.

EB: You differ Edward? It’s always said that we don’t sell when blacks are on the cover of magazines.. Vogue, for example, will say that we sell more copies when Gisele is on the cover than Naomi. I think these magazines have the strength to say that this is what we believe in {a multicultural outlook} and condition their readers to accept that. The audience has to be forced-fed in some instances. It didn’t just happen to have a white face on the cover. It’s conditioning. So if these magazines don’t feature color inside or on the cover of a magazine, it’ll continue to be a normal thing. Another side to this that I’m realizing more and more is that the decision-makers are usually white people: the casting agents, the designers, the owners of the company. And sometimes you’re working with a stylist who doesn’t even consider the race issue. Whenever I do a casting, as a black American, I have to consider my representation on the runways.

TC: Blacks love fashion just as much as your average white person, so why not accommodate us and represent us on the runway — and on more than one model!

JCR: What about the new publications for people of color, will this have an effect in altering the perception of blacks and fashion?

EB: What we’re doing in essence is exactly what whites have been doing. We feel like we’re not represented in the market so we’re going to start a magazine, which is going to solely focus on our issues and image. So why then is it acceptable for Vogue to do the same thing?

JCR: But is it really the same thing?

EB: We’re trying to solve that problem, forcing the greater culture to understand that we buy, we appreciate beauty, and we’re interested in these kinds of things. American Vogue symbolizes the American dream. We’re just as American as those white ladies feature in the magazine. We know Hé
rmes and Cartier. We buy fine wines. We go out to dinner. We shop uptown and downtown. We deserve to be in that magazine. So doing our own magazines, I think is great, but I also think it’s important that we demand to be in Vogue as well.

Photos: Liya Kedebe for Estee Lauder
Stephen Burrows
Alex Wek

P Diddy
Rocawear s/s ’05 campaign
Andre Leon Talley
Leflesh